For the last couple of weeks, I've been ruminating on something that probably won't please a number of this blog's regular readers. In short, I'm heavily considering switching the development of The Blades of Netheril from NWN1 to NWN2.
Why ponder such a major change? Several reasons. Firstly, the migration of the community to the sequel seems to be gathering pace. The majority of community members I've known for several years have now made the shift. There's still a significant number of builders enthusiastic about NWN1, but in the main, the more experienced modders are working with NWN2. I feel I'm getting left behind, especially since I can't talk about Ossian-related stuff with other builders.
The obstacles that made AL4 impossible for NWN2 a year ago--no epic levels, not enough content--have been removed. I'm confident the story and design can be ported across with minimal compromise. Had this been the case when I started the project, I might have elected to create the module for NWN2 from the start.
Another important consideration is the fact Ossian Studios are developing for NWN2. This provides some considerable benefits, which I can't really discuss, but suffice to say that I believe NWN2 still has a bright future; something which, if I'm honest, I wasn't so certain of 18 months ago. Like I said, I think the experienced building community is now mostly with NWN2, and while NWN1 remains a great game, I feel it'll probably be kept alive mainly by the PW folk. There'll still be new mods, of course, but the single-player base will only decrease in size.
If I had released AL4 last year, none of this would be an issue. But it's still deep in development, and as mentioned, I'm re-thinking a few things. Now might be the right time to change the nature of the project to something I'll probably see greater benefits from going forward.
I'd like to hear thoughts and opinions on this, from both sides of the fence.
Edit: I've added a poll so you can quickly register your opinion. Please vote!
Sunday, 1 June 2008
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29 comments:
With AL1-3 out for NWN1, and AL4 already in development for NWN1, it makes the most sense to continue the development for NWN1.
That way, those of us who haven't gotten NWN2 will be able to experience the whole story.
A NWN1 AL4 also allows us to use our character we used in AL1-3, which would be impossible if AL4 is done for NWN2.
There is also the fact that NWN1 has more custom content than NWN2 has.
And for purely personal/selfish reasons, I don't have NWN2 and don't plan on getting it.
NWN2 has less custom content than NWN1, to be sure, but what's needed for AL4 is mostly there. I wouldn't consider migrating to the sequel if that wasn't the case.
Character continuity is a bit of a problem. It's true that not being able to use the same character in The Blades of Netheril as in AL1-3 would be a drawback. On the other hand, the AL series has always been a series of fairly independent adventures, and AL4 is the same in that regard. It'd be easy enough for players to recreate their character through one of the character creator modules--and it would also mean they wouldn't suffer from the poor loot balance introduced in AL2 and AL3, instead coming in a with a clean slate. That's definitely a silver lining.
Not being able to satisfy NWN1 players is the thing which weighs most heavily on my mind. I can get around the other concerns. That said, NWN2 is pretty cheap now and as computers get better, those without a system to run it will eventually catch up. I know some people just outright dislike NWN2, which is fair enough. May I ask why you don't plan on getting NWN2? There's some great stuff in the pipe for it, not least of which is Mysteries of Westgate. :)
Well, for reasons given by yourself, I think switching to NWN2 makes sense. (I also like the idea about getting a chance to re-balance the treasure, and re-making characters is feasible, too, if one wants to do that. I, for one, would appreciate the possibility of AL4 working as a stand-alone, too.) It's just the superior game, and the one with the brighter future (especially if people make modules for it!).
Of course I'm not impartial. That some fans of the series couldn't play NWN2 due to not having powerful enough computers would be unfortunate for them. But they'll probably upgrade at some point - most of them, that is - if they haven't already done that.
And there are also those, like me, who don't play NWN1 anymore and who were somewhat disappointed to see that AL4 would be made for the older game.
Just my 2 cents. :)
P.S. Very glad to see that comment about the bright future of the game.
"It'd be easy enough for players to recreate their character through one of the character creator modules"
Unless they played a Shifter. (Which I usually don't.)
"and it would also mean they wouldn't suffer from the poor loot balance introduced in AL2 and AL3"
An item strip could take care of that, as long as it's handled like HotU or Pirates of the Sword Coast, where you can get your items back by the end of the module.
As for why I don't plan on getting NWN2, I feel that Obsidian really fumbled the ball with the game. Many design decisions they made I don't agree with, and in some ways it seems like NWN2 has less functionality than NWN1.
Some of the decisions Obsidian made just seem strange. They spent zots validating your character's deity by alignment, race and class, but couldn't spare any zots for implementing the Shifter? And surely there was a better solution in balancing the damage output of the Frenzied Berserker than nerfing Power Attack for everyone else.
I could go on, but I'll spare you. I will say that if I eventually do get NWN2, it will be because of Mysteries of Westgate. I feel that Ossian is getting screwed over in the continual delay over the 1.13 patch that will allow that sort of DLC.
I don't think you need to worry about people's computers. With the number of maps you've said you need for the story, it'll be at least 18+ months before you get AL4 out, especially given OTHER things that are going on. (I actually think that's a conservative estimate.) By then, NWN2 specs will be old hat.
Lariam -- I agree with what you're saying, with perhaps one exception. I'd say more, but given my position, I need to keep a rein on my personal views on occasion. ;-)
Scott -- I can't say I disagree with many of your points, and I wish there was some compromise that worked for both communities. I'll ponder it some more. I'd definitely recommend NWN2, if only for MotB, MoW, and some of the great community modules now available.
Russ -- Yes, there's no telling when this will be released. The worry about fans not having computers capable of running NWN2 is somewhat redundant when you look at it like that.
I have to choose to stay on the NWN1-part of the fence in this case. You've already started creating the game for NWN1 so it makes a lot more sense to me to continue on that path.
Sure, NWN2 is a lot more popular and better graphic-wise these days ... BUT ... since you've had the whole series on NWN1 I think you should finish it in that platform. Mostly so that players can re-use their characters from AL3 etc.
But after finishing AL4 ... feel free to move on to NWN2! :D
There you have my opinion but in the end the decision is ultimately yours. :)
I think you are fine making the leap. I'm porting an NWN1 project over to NWN2, and it's taking a while. I know that's not same as what you are suggesting but I think you'll be just fine. Go for it!
As long as you are willing to put in the extra time making areas I think its a good idea. The nwn2 toolset is more fun to use.
It would be additional motivation to learn the NWN2 toolset, if you're still interested in my work.
I really want to, but Citadel keeps filling the building time available. Jim's teaching in Mexico for a month soon and I've planned on cracking it open while he's gone.
I regret some of the maps, though.
Maddyanne
Personally I'd prefer you to release the module for NWN1, which I'm greatly more accustomed to. If you're sensible, though, you'll simply do what's best for you and your life.
If you're going to release a module for NWN2, does it even have to be AL4? Couldn't you start an altogether new module? Alternatively, how about remaking the whole AL series, bigger and better than ever before? (Or is this suggestion laughably stupid? Don't hesitate to say, if it is!)
I'm all for NWN2 but won't you be fed up with blades of Netheril in 12 months whan you're still left with a lot of work to do ? Wouldn't it be better for you to finish the NWN1 mod and then go for a new story ?
I'd rather know the end of the story that begun with my character and not finish the campaign with another one.
If you chose to port it to NWN2, could the mod begin with a level up area in which a dungeon master would give magic items that are adapted from your previous nwn1 mods as well as ask questions to the PC in order to know how he behave in the past NWN1 mods and set the variables accordingly (old loves, ennemies, discussions with companions...) ? This would help easing the translation between NWN1's AL3 and a theoritical NWN2's AL4.
Good luck with your writing and modding either way.
Awildawn
I have NWN2 and a powerful enough computer to run it. That said, I still like NWN1 better. My personal preference aside, I think you should build in whichever toolset will keep you motivated. No sense playing in a sandbox if you don't enjoy it. (As for the comment about the NWN2 toolset being easier to use, that is HIGHLY subjective.)
Berra -- I'd consider the series to be several games rather than one whole--they are all self-contained stories after all--so I think in that sense, I don't lose an awful lot by switching games.
Ernie -- Thanks! It's Hythum you're re-making, right?
Corey -- I'm not sure if it's more fun, but I know for a certainty that it's more complex. That's good, though, since it makes for a more interesting challenge. NWN1 is starting to feel very old now and there's nothing left to be mastered there.
Maddyanne/Chris -- The fact you guys are okay with the idea is heartening, since letting your amazing areas go to waste (or at least released outside their intended purpose if you choose to) was something that troubled me greatly.
JDA -- The Blades of Netheril is definitely the story I want to tell. Re-making AL1-3 would be amazingly hard work, and to be honest, they have design weaknesses that I'd need to address in the process. They were great for what they were, but it's time to move on.
Anvildawn -- Your suggestions sound very much like the kind of tactics I'd employ to port the player across. We'll see... :)
Be guided by your goals/conscience - not those of the players. This is not - after all - a premium mod or adventure pack. :) Its your creation.
I think tho you should be careful in suggesting "all experienced" moders are moving to 2 i.e. generalizations. "Berra" and Ole FP for example are well established authors - seemingly with plans for NWN1 - not 2. I would not belittle their contributions - tho I know that is not your intent.
I see some room for optimism with the 2 game as well. I have been very pleased to see Obsidian support it as fervently as they have. As you say machines to run it will come down in price over time. However, the recent fiasco with the Gold edition (key code MOW) has again "unfairly" tarnished the reputation of a fine game. I think that further adventure packs of high quality better be in the pipeline.
People will only forgive so much an if something equivelent or even better comes along (Dragon Age?) well I am still hedging my bets. Ill still buy and play NWN2..but..
Cheers
JFoxtail
Hey, Alazander. I've played through the AL games several times, and they're easily my favorite mods, hands down.
NW1 is easily in the top 3 funnest games I have ever played. I have never played NW2, however, because my system is unable to run it.
It's true that I will get a better system eventually, but I don't know when that will be.
I think the greatest disappointment comes from expecting AL4's release for some time only to have it be released in a form that at this point I cannot even enjoy. I don't mean that as a criticism about how long it has taken, I'm just factoring in the anticipation that I, and probably others, have felt in awaiting the conclusion to this great story.
Secondary considerations are those that others have already mentioned, such as character continuity. I'll play it at some point, I'm sure, no matter when it comes out or on for which game, but I really would prefer the NWN1 release.
Come to the dark side -- we have cookies.
Hi Alazander.
I played AL1 to AL3. I really enjoyed these mods, they ranked among my top favorites. I would very much like if AL4 will continue in NWN1.
I don't have NWN2, because my computer doesn't meet the minimum system requirements to run the game. Money is also an issue for me. For me, games have become an investment, specially RPG because of their high replay value. Should AL4 be made for NWN2, I feel I have to buy a new computer, plus NWN2 and MoTB to finish the series.
But, as much as I hate to say it, it's your call. AL4 is your baby, you're please to do it as you wish it.
Take care.
Hi Alazander,
I really enjoyed your modules so far and keep the PC I used in AL3 ready to jump in AL4 anytime. I would really like to know the final part of this 4-episode story; even though each module is self-contained, they were also open-ended to leave the player with a few question marks about what's going on. You already provided some info about what could have happened in Al3 if Atari hadn't killed the Premium program prematurely, but reading a synopsis doesn't provide the same effect than discovering the vilain's plot through exploration and strategically-challlenging battles.
I understand that you developed your knowledge of NWN2 toolset in the last months, but don't you want to be the author of one of the few NWN modules using the content of patch 1.69 to its full glory?
HerrJeff
I say go NWN2. As a player, once I started with NWN2 there was no chance I was going back. In my opinion, one of the few things holding NWN2 back in the past, was the lack of developers. That tide is turning, go with it... :)
Javaslinger
If you seriously want to hear my opinion, I would advocate finishing up the series in NWN1. Then you could move on to NWN2 if you wish.
I own NWN2 (Including MotB) but I recently un-installed it. I just don't like the game. I have no problem running it. But I just don't have as much *fun* with it. I don't know how else to put it. To me, NWN2 is not as immersive, not as enjoyable, not as much *fun* as NWN1.
I have played AL1-3 and enjoyed them very much. I have been looking forward to seeing AL4 very much. But if you decide to make it in NWN2 I am afraid that I don't want to play it badly enough to bother with putting that game back on my system. It just isn't worth the space it takes up as far as I am concerned. Not when I am rapidly filling up the available storage space on my HD with all of the NWN1 modules that I have been downloading recently.
I know this isn't very relevant, but there are actually a couple of well known sets of modules that have been started with NWN1 and will be finished with NWN2. There's Andarian's series, and the bard modules that are made in German, first, and translated then in English - can't remember the name of the author. Oh, I do: 'Milena'. Also, Tiberius was planning to continue Slaeron's Gambit in NWN2 at some point, and the makers of the Ancient Heart modules, as well as of the Island Adventure modules, have been toying with the idea of making a sequel - in NWN2. Those would all be NWN2 modules where one is supposed to use the character from the NWN1 mods.
Of course there are those, too, who continue with NWN1. Perhaps they dislike NWN2 or find NWN1 better. But probably in *many* cases they simply are close enough to finishing so that moving on to NWN2 doesn't really make sense (I'm thinking of Festerpot and Elven Rogue here, although I'm just guessing). And yeah, I do know that many have said they just don't like NWN2 that much: luspr, SubBassman (although he has mentioned an NWN2 project, too), etc.
Like I indicated, I don't think that any of that constitutes an argument for going with either of the games, but it just occurred to me that changing mid-series or mid-set-of-modules wouldn't be unheard of, so to speak.
So, not an argument, really, but a poorly veiled attempt at swaying Alazander a tiny bit closer to picking NWN2. ;)
Cheers,
Lariam
Well, do as you please, if it means finishing the whole thing and then moving on to other projects. My opinion on this is clear though: I would play it on NWN2 but it wouldn't feel like AL4,
... it would play like a sort of stand alone module, not the epic finale to an epic series...
Anyway, I'm sure lots of players will be disapointed if you move it to NWN2... and while the builders' opinion is geared towards switching, I don't think that's your main "clientele".
In any case, do what makes you happy... but don't worry about trends.
Fardoche77
Alazander,
I have to agree with those who think that the feel of NWN2 is too much different from NWN1 to really justify calling AL4 a sequel if you moved it to NWN2. Let alone a worthy climax to the story you've told. I realize you see them as somewhat stand-alones. But there is continuity to the feel and the key story-elements. I'm not sure moving to NWN2 doesn't disrupt that, even if the content you need is there.
As for the game itself, I've never found it half as immersive as the original. The lack of customizations options and sloppy interface doesn't help either. Then there's the combat animations issues. *sigh*
I think that while I can understand why NWN2 is more of a challenge for you as a builder, there's real reasons why PLAYERS have received it so lukewarmly. And it comes down to it being an inferior playing experience (even though I will grant that both OCs are superior to the Bioware NWN OCs).
I play NWN2 SP mods. Though NWN2 MP to me is a disaster I won't touch. I also have to agree with foxtail that saying "all the experienced modders" have moved to NWN2 was ill-considered to those who did stay, though I'm sure that wasn't your intent.
Will I play AL4 on NWN2? Probably. Do I think it's the best for the player base? No. And I think also you have to consider the issue of what shutting down and switching to NWN2 will do with that development time and the effect the wait will have on your audience.
Personally I think the best thing to do would be to finish in NWN1, then continue with a new story (or do a full port of the entire series) in NWN2.
RangerSG
Just to clarify, I never said *all* experienced modders had moved to NWN2--I'm aware there a number of experienced and talented modders still active with NWN1. You'll note the phrase "In the main..." and the word "mostly..." in what I suspect are the "offending" parts of the post.
How about converting them all into the nwn2 and the single mega adventure that they are supposed to be?
Hello Alazander this i was sitting up til eight in the morning to finish your incredible serie of masterworks. the end was so sudden i felt forced to see if you had released a another of the series and then i noticed this.
I understand the motives to bring AL to NWN2 but from my own thoughts i'd have to say i would dearly like you to keep it in NWN1 i've never really agreed with NWN2 ..in my opinion it always feels so "bright" in every area and doesn't bring out that horror NWN1 can make you feel a place shines of. Also i cannot agree with it's graphic ( The Elves looked rather funny..and none of them could even have long hair. )
Well that's my opinion , and once again thank you for creating this marvelous modules.
Nidal Telin
Personally I agree with the NWN1 side; since all the AL's where made for that game, it would be a great dissapointment for a lot of NWN1 players if you continue it in NWN2. I know they are ment to be stand-alone modules, but if you played through all of them with the same character like I have (and I think a lot of players did), it just won't have the same feel to it.
Surely, we could recreate them in NWN2, but to be franctly honest, I don't like that game very much. The graphics are wonderful yes, but NWN2 just can't give me the same thrill as NWN1 still does. Maybe I'm just an old hag clinging on to an ancient past, but I really tried to enjoy 2 as much as 1 and it just won't work for me.
I do own a copy of NWN2, so if you decide to create the module in that game I would still play it. But I'm quite sure I won't enjoy it as much as the first 3 AL's; it's just not the same.
So my personal opinion: NWN1 FTW :)
Bianca that was like taken out of my mind! i agree with you fully.
Besides ..NWN2 has no portraits , which added a kind of spice to the MMORPG
Nidal Telin , Proffesional Nuisance.
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