The MoW journey truly has been remarkable. At times, it's felt like being dragged three miles along a road lined with broken glass by a van driving very, very slowly. At other times, the sensation has been more akin to amputating a major extremity using only a cheese grater and an open fire. On the odd occasion when glimmers of light have promised sweet salvation, they inevitably flickered and died as they drew closer, like mischievous wisps luring unsuspecting prey ever further into the metaphorical Bog of Despair.
And I'm only being slightly facetious.The recent announcement of MoW's DRM details was almost reassuring in the way it so swiftly and mercilessly crushed the high spirits a firm release date had deigned to provide -- just what Mysteries of Westgate needed after 18 months of cold storage and a history so sordid that the most desperate brothel would turn away its custom with a hard stare.
I don't like DRM much. I like limited activation DRM even less. When it comes to limited activation DRM used on a game I designed and am counting on to sell enough so that I and a lot of other talented folk actually get a chance to make another, I am positively frosty. I know the arguments for and against it; I know which way my allegiances lie. That, though, is not what I'm going to expatiate about. Instead, I'm going to talk about why MoW needs to be supported. Not on the BioWare forums, because that way lies madness and a swift thread-locking and probably some mild discomfort that the Lead Designer on the project caused such a furore. No, here will have to do.
I've been following the reaction to the details of MoW's DRM on the net, you see. A worryingly large number of users have posted claiming they won't be purchasing the game based upon its DRM. Truly, I don't blame them. They're taking a principled stand and, you know, it seems to be working. Publishers are beginning to back down. Point proved. The problem is, and you knew this was coming but it's worth saying anyway, the only ones that will be harmed in MoW's case will be Ossian Studios and the community.
Ultimately, low sales of MoW will mean no more adventure packs or expansions for NWN2. Atari will not interpret low sales of MoW as the DRM killing sales -- no, it'll be perceived as a lack of interest in the product and a belief that there's no longer a market there worth investing in. That will certainly mean no more official content for NWN2. Given how far the game has progressed these last couple of years, and with the uber-patch 1.23 looming, this would be something of a tragedy. My personal opinion is that NWN2 has now matured as a platform, one I can see supporting new content and campaign for years to come. This is only going to happen if the community supports MoW.
Here's the deal. Ossian Studios gave what was to be its first commercial game to the community for free. Individually, the folk who make up Ossian have contributed over 50 award-winning modules for both NWN games in addition to countless scripts, utilities, models and other artwork, music, and even a PW or two -- all of it free. By supporting a $10 game that will provide you with 20 or so hours of enjoyment -- almost as much as the $30 expansions -- you're helping reward us for that hard work and ensuring that we get a fair crack of the whip in future. Hopefully, we'll thank you in turn with new games that surpass anything we did with MoW.
We need to be given the chance, though. It's not about coming over all maudlin or trying to inflict a guilt trip on anyone. Those are the facts as stated above -- you can make up your own mind about how your principles relate to them. It's certainly not for me or anyone else to say; principles are principles.
Just know that we'd really appreciate your support.
90 comments:
Even with my reviewers copy, "which is not up to date with patches etc" I am buying a fresh copy :) You guys earned your worth for patience, professionalism and good community spirit.
It is just my opinion here. But DRM vs a $10.00 game? I mean c'mon! Not even a consideration for me. You cannot get this high of quality gaming for $10 anywhere.
Nice write up Luke. :)
Regards
Liso
well, i've been posting my thoughts on this over on the forums.
I truly don't understand the fuss. There's a time and place for principles, but what I'm seeing more of is naievity and overreaction. And too many people willing to forgo playing a CRPG they will probably highly enjoy - which is ridicuous cutting their nose to spite their face
Roll on the 29th. I just hope there more publicity about MoW for you guys to reach the rest of the NWN2-playing public. Poor marketing on top of the DRM is the last thing you need.
I hear what you are saying, but I believe there might be a better way ...
I mean, have you considered opening a PayPal account where followers of Ossian's work can contribute towards their "website" if you see what I mean?
Is it even possible where membership of the website costs $10, but all members receive a membership number that unlocks access to certain downloads?
I don't know the legal limits of what I am saying, but if you could remove yourself from anything to do with DRM or Atari and have people "pay" for something that just so happens to also allow people to gain access to other material on your website, then I would have thought you would get a fanbase to support your "website".
The point I am trying to make is, I do want to support the builders, but I am one of those who will avoid anything to do with DRM whenever possible ... or more importantly, limited installs. I can understand DRM to a degree, but cannot accept limited installs.
I will even go one stage further and say that if it means Atari will let go of the franchise because they think it's now a loser (due to less downloads), then maybe that is what should happen. One can then hope someone with more sense will pick up from where they let it go but without crippling it with limited installs.
I know there is the worry that such a great game will die a death, but I don't think that will happen. I do believe we should make a stand against "limited installs" no matter what the game. For as much as I love playing and designing D&D modules, I would rather change my hobby than support this kind of thing. I simply cannot enjoy the game under this kind of limitation.
I would even say that if I were in your shoes, I would love to even be able to tell Atari that I do not support what they are doing to your game and withdraw your code and offer it "free" to people, but ask people to support your "website" where more such games may become available in the future. To be able to tell Atari where to go would be worth a million dollars in my opinion and worth much more in respect than anything else money could buy.
There again, the choice is yours. But, I can assure you, I woul pay $10 to you for your product without the limited downloads, but I will not pay anybody a penny for any game with limited downloads.
There is only one game (which remains from previous hype) that I have said I may buy if it drops low enough in cost and that is Mass Effect. However, after this game, I have made the decision to not even look at a game if it has limited installs. That way, I cannot be disappointed at not having it.
Sorry to ramble on so, but I reckon you have a great opportunity to be the people's hero, and maybe that will be more rewarding in the future than any of us may yet consider. :)
Lance.
<< But DRM vs a $10.00 game? I mean c'mon! Not even a consideration for me. >>
THIS ^^^^^^ !!!
In fact, my normal gaming computer has been dead for close to two months so I just got my wife's computer up and running with NWN2 in part because MoW is coming out. :-)
JasonNH
Lance—I understand the sentiment, but the issue is that what you suggest just isn't possible; Atari owns all rights to what we've produced. They paid for it. The NWN franchise belongs to them, as do the sole licensing rights for D&D-based games (as far I'm aware). For Ossian to do anything for NWN2 involving cash changing hands outside of a contract with Atari would be wrong and subject to all the usual legal ramifications from several parties.
Selling content on a website is a nice idea in theory, but unless you're creating your own engine, IP, assets, and everything else, you're going to have to license these from someone. This requires capital or investment. And if you're doing everything from scratch, you're going to need a very large and talented team that share the unique inclination towards working for no pay over several years. That's if you want to create something worth selling. The chances of this happening are roughly zilch, because people need to eat and have families.
I don't know what your definition of "dying a death" is, but I can guarantee that if MoW doesn't do well at market, NWN2 will receive no further official content outside of whatever patches are specified in Obsidian's contract. We're in a recession and publishers won't waste money on a franchise they don't regard as profitable, regardless of any mitigating circumstances. Atari owns the NWN franchise – it's not something they can lose. The game will just die if they don't invest it in.
Legal sitaution ... That's a shame. :( I had a nasty feeling you may be tied in to that degree.
I'll keep an eye on the situation then.
Lance.
Huh? I thought you guys were working on something, NWN 2 related of course, while the MoW delay was going on. I mean, it was almost spelled out to us on the MoW forums a few times in the past.
You can't tell me you guys have been sitting idle these 18 months, waiting for Mow's release? You said yourself, right here in fact, NWN 2 has a ''bright future'' that was about a year ago. What happened? What did you mean?
Hypothetically speaking if you guys did develop another adventure pack/expansion pack in the mean time, and if you say MoW doesn't sell well(odds are it won't), surely Atari isn't that damn enough to dump the stuff you did in the recycle bin, and hit the delete key if MoW's not a financial success? That doesn't make a lot of sense to me at all.
I can't say too much about what Ossian might or might not have been working on; all I can do is reiterate the point that if MoW doesn't sell, NWN2 is finished. How this could be allowed to happen is another discussion entirely -- one I can't participate in at this point, since burning bridges when you're a startup like Ossian is not wise.
Thanks for the reply Alazander
It's all very sad to hear.
$10 is not much money today - paperback books go for $8, and are the same each time you read 'em, while this is an interactive story, that can be replayed over and over again, in which the action and ending can change each time. $2 bucks more for a story you're a part of, instead of just reading about it, is more than worth it in my opinion. May we soon see even more from Ossian!
The limited installs are disappointing, but I'd like to reinforce Marc's point. For the price of a movie ticket, Lance, you'd really skip this?
Posted/shared this over on bouncy rock. I agree with it to much not to help spread it. :)
Regards
Michele
While I understand your position, I believe a better position is to never by another Atari product. If everyone else were to do the same, they would either go out of business or use a less draconian method to protect their IP.
I do not object to reasonable limitations to protect IP.
However, as my computer was attacked because of SecuRom, I have no intention of ever installing such a product again.
I would love to play MoW, but the price is too high. Atari with their short-sighted vision is either going to kill PC gaming or lose their customers.
Now as a game designer, you have a choice as who will publish your game. Choose a company that doesn't treat their paying customers as criminals while causing zero discomfort to those who would steal it anyway.
When first exposed to Steam, I thought it was a bad idea. However, I now see it as the lesser of two evils. It also seems to be stable and I can install a game as often as I would like.
IMHO, the best policy is to hit Atari where it hurt to either force them out of the computer gaming industry or change their policies. This needs to be the unified message from all quarters instead of apologies for unscrupulous business practices.
I am truly sorry that your group of talented designers has to bear the brunt of this.
Well put Alazander! I bought MoW the first day for the very reasons you stated; but mainly to support Ossian Studios. Am I happy about the 3-time install? Not really. But I bought Mass Effect and it has the same DRM type. And that sold like hotcakes!
Let's hope this all works out for the best for everyone and enough people buy your product(s). I'll buy your products!
Take care and best of luck to you all!
And thanks everyone else who supports Ossian, Obisidian, and BioWare!
I bought MoW as soon as it was available, and only then did I buy SoZ. That was the extent of my 'baby revolt'. Real people are involved, not a faceless entity. Ossian is poised on the verge of success, and I would hate to see them falter now because of a perceived lack of interest in their product. Their work is top notch! The way I look at it is thus: If this was a full game or even a big expansion pack, with a price tag commensurate ($35 - $50), I might then refuse to buy it on principle because of the DRM scheme. However, it is the price of a movie ticket. I don't expect to leave the theater with a DVD of the movie for that price, folks. And I don't want to so punish the theatre that it closes and I can't see a movie at any price.
Put it into perspective if you're considering boycotting MoW. The low cost of this product should be a big part of your decision. At least, it is for me.
Mow is, dollar for dollar, the best NWN2 value I've ever bought.
Regards, all. I hope see much more from Ossian, but they need to be given a shot. MoW is their shot.
JFK
Sadly, if we as gamers go the route you're suggesting, Atari will just as naively interpret it as "DRM doesn't hurt sales". What a bind!
I prefer to pay $10 for this masterpiece than see NWN2 go to the hell! NWN2 is the best CRPG and i want to see it grown for almost other 2 or 3 years. So go Ossian i hope you sell MoW well and create another Adventure Pack like this.
You have my support ever!
Bought it. Great game. To be honest, I think the DRM issue is WAY overblown. It has been made clear that if you reach your reactivation limit (which for most people shouldn't happen for about 2 or 3 years), that Atari could be contacted, and they could reset it.
The DRM was painless. Compared to the horrible DRM in the old NWN1 premium modules, it is positively enlightened.
Alazander: Thanks for your candor. Along with folks like Lance and others, I am a stringent and ardent opponent of DRM. However, I also, having been around the block a few times, know there is wisdom in picking your battles.
I haven't got it yet, though I do intend to purchase MoW. This goes against my normal grain of:
A: Opposing DRM/ACS schema in the first place;
B: Disliking intensely the Download Only format of Premium Content/Adventure Packs; and
C: Having to perform Online Activation of a non-online title (Mommy, can I go play now? Or more like getting a Permission Slip from the teacher.)
All that said, we all are in an unenviable position vis-a-vis D&D style gaming on any computer platform. We do not have the choice we should be able to have, even according to TSR/WotC rules systems. Where is Rule 0 in all this? For those that don't know, Rule 0 is: Keep, add to, modify or throw out anything you don't like and have fun!
As a gaming platform on the computer, the D&D license and franchise has given us all some great games over time. As a modding platform, there is no other honestly worth mentioning, not now or ever so far.
So there is a conundrum, a paradoxical and proverbial Rock and a Hard Place when it comes to this issue for me. Do I choose to play a game that has DRM/ACS installed in it (in direct violation of the Fair Use Doctrine, [i]our[/i] Digital Rights Management) and support a franchise that, otherwise, might not provide any further content, games, expansions in the near forseeable future? Or, do I not support and play a game/company that is the only one that is allowed and licensed to produce and hire developers for this franchise in order to take a stand against DRM/ACS?
This is the issue at this point in time and I have said before (and most likely will again) you must pick your battles. In this case, I have, irrespective of my stand on the entire issue of DRM/ACS and what piracy is or is not, decided to purchase a copy of MoW in order to support Ossian. Not Atari, not Obsidian (though to some degree it does that as well) just Ossian as they deserve to have a chance to get into the Big Time.
It has less to do with the amount of money I spend than it does with having to choose between two sets of semi-conflicting principles.
One principle is clearly the stand against DRM/ACS.
The competing principle in this case is more lofty and humanistic: What would I wish others to do if it were me in the hot seat? And, honestly, if I were in your shoes, I would hope that folks could take a moment to be sympathetic and compassionate, to share the ideal of the dream to Make It, into a career field that, for me, would be a Dream Job.
And so, I am taking a principled stand to choose to support the dream and not the nightmare in this case. Both of them exist side-by-side and like many of my personal sleeping dreams, they sometimes exist in one and the same instance as this one. So I choose to support the dream aspect and not the nightmare.
I hope you all can see my point and respect it enough to realize that perhaps, in this instance, keeping the dream alive, even if it means supporting the nightmare as well, is a wiser and more humanistic approach.
I, too, am crosslinking this over at the NeverWinter Citadel Project in our News Update Section.
Thanks for all your efforts, candor and patience Team Ossian,
my best regards,
dunniteowl
NWN2 Forums Moderator
NWN2 Community Representative
Admin/Moderator,
NeverWinter Citadel Project
Alazander, got MoW on the first day. Played through most of it. Nice, solid module.
I understand your sentiments about DRM. My co-worker and I -- who we've been following the MoW drama for sometime now agree with it. The only way for small, up and coming companies to get a foothold in this type of business(which is precarious to begin with) is for folks like us to buy the products. Period.
Not to repeat what Alazander said, Atari will not view low sales as DRM is bad and should be removed from the surface of the planet.(which is what we all want) Would they possibly consider the fact that this drama had been so poorly mismanaged for 18 months and that the audience just folded up their tents and went home? Considering Atari's history, I highly doubt it. but, that is indeed the case I think.
For those who aren't buying MoW for the DRM reason, I strongly urge you to reconsider. Alazander is right. The only thing that matters to Atari (or any other company) are sales. If you support what Ossian has done or will do in the future buy MoW. You don't even have to install it. Just think of the ten bucks as a way of thanking them for their very hard work. It would be no different than giving a ten dollar "donation" to their work.
Everyone who has been following this for sometime has to admit, Ossian has gotten the proverbial screw-job on all this, right? MoW is their only single pay-to-play module. Which might be up their in the annals of computer gaming history for the way it was treated. Darkness over Daggerford was let to the roadside to die -- just missing the window for premium modules. All that hard work for nothing. With all this history, It wouldn't be surprising to hear Ossian is quitting this entire endeavor. I know, if roles were reversed, I would consider it. But this is our chance to help them out.
Secondly, I'd post at the ATARI forums. Just leave one message that you're not happy with DRM. Their forums is like a ghost town, I think I can see tumbleweeds rolling their way around the place. It's kind of sad. No one goes there. But people need to. This IS the place to post such feeling about DRM.
Ok, I'm done. Alazander, I wish you good luck in all your future endeavors.
I just wanted to say that the DRM issue is mute to me.
I can see the fellow modders that are getting the chance to live their dream and I'll be damned if I'll let $10 stop me from showing my support! Jimmeny Cricket!! $10 for MoW is less than half of my average business lunch... for an equal if not superior expansion than Atari has produced.
You guys have done a great job and have strived to stay professional and positive in all of your comments.
Keep your heads up and push forward, we're counting on you guys.
"Ultimately, low sales of MoW will mean no more adventure packs or expansions for NWN2. Atari will not interpret low sales of MoW as the DRM killing sales -- no, it'll be perceived as a lack of interest in the product and a belief that there's no longer a market there worth investing in."
I wanted to quote this just to ask how can you be sure that Atari will interpret low sales this way? As much as people like to bag on Atari for this and that and being stupid and whatnot, in regards to hurting sales I have a hard time believing that they'd be this ignorant to assume it's a lack of interest as opposed to the incompetent mismanagement of the situation on their part due to what's ultimately an unacceptable DRM. I mean, being as how this is basically all anyone who hadn't bought it is talking about and has been for the last 18 months, how could they possibly be that unaware of what's going on with their own products?
For the same reason, it seems just so bizarre to me that the entire future of a potentially profitable franchise would be riding on MoW. It's like they put all their eggs in one basket, then started the basket on fire.
Anyway, I know this is a touchy subject for you Ossian guys, so I just want to say now I'm not calling you a liar. It's just my internal logic of how anyone rational could interpret this after just a shallow glance at the situation makes this hard to believe.
Unfortunately, after being on the fence about it I decided I won't help you out after a certain situation not long ago. But just the same, wish you guys well with it and hope you find some manner of success despite my personal feelings on the subject.
It boggles the mind that the NWN 2 franchise rests on the shoulders of MoW. How can a mini ex pack contain more intrusive DRM than the 2.5 year base game? c'mon that's nonsense - not to mention a ridiculous 18 month delay for implementing it.
*shrugs* I'm not interested in intrusive DRM. I'm glad now that EA has woken up and it won't been in Dragon Age. I hope Atari wakes up too one day.
Dirtywick -- Let's assume that as the design lead with Ossian, who is in a business relationship with Atari, I have access to information that they don't publicly release. Remember the rumours about NX3 a while back? Did you get the impression Storm of Zehir sold particularly well? Come on, put two and two together.
Listen, I could spend two pages writing a very sorry tale about Ossian's trials these last 18 months and how it has affected me personally. I could throw some figures at you to back up all my arguments. I won't, though, because that would be very unprofessional and -- as I said in an earlier comment here -- burning bridges and acting up when you're a small company is a great way to ensure no one wants to treat with you in future.
I know you had this same debate with Tiberius a while back on the Bouncy Rock forums. I've tried to be as candid and reasonable as I can without getting myself into bother. I hope you appreciate this.
As for Atari's decision-making, I can't comment. I'll just refer you to the first paragraph of my blog post, particularly the parts about glass and cheese graters.
Io l'ho comprato.e subito.Vi supporto perchè sono totalmente in linea con quello che ha scritto alazander.Tutti voi all'ossian lo meritate.Sorry if I didn't wrote in english but right now I'm not in the right mood...
Keep up the good work
_Jones-
Hmm, well i didnt' even realize there was a "DRM" and I bought the module w/o second thought. I mean c'mon $9.99? Easy sell. I have enjoyed Ossians' previous work and continue to enjoy it through MOW. Though I can see why Ossian would be "frosty" about having something they know many detest thrust upon them ,by, I can only guess "lawyers" or "accountant types", Ossian was still breaking new and exciting ground for any wannabe game designer out here. This is new territory and I doubt DRM has "broken" the juggernaut. You guys should be very proud of your accomplishment and trudge on! Your on the front line so to speak and, yeah, your gonna get shot up a bit, but nothing you won't live through I'm guessing. So get back in there and push the envelope so the rest of us can sit back and wonder "How the heck did they do that?" I hope I have not offended anyone, if I have I apologize...
Lothyr
I'm going to say it here; I had no problems purchasing this despite the DRM. I also have no issues with the DRM in Mass Effect, because it's not intruding on my gameplay any more than the one in MoW does. This following part is what I very nearly posted on the Dragon Age forum, though. Unless there is a D2D version of that game, I will not be buying it; I bought Mass Effect specifically because it did not have a disc check. Even though I have said in the past that I would not buy digital-only downloads, if game publishers are going to take what I consider a big step backwards to please the fans, I will have to either stop buying games altogether, or start buying the digital versions so I don't have to insert a different disc for every game I play. Some of you might ask why I don't just get a no-cd crack; I don't believe in "feeding the wrongdoers" by supporting their criminal pursuits.
Alazander, Cinnabar Din here. You make a compelling case. I was in a real conundrum over this. As one who staunchly opposes any form of DRM, I find it very difficult to set aside my principles on this and toss money at Atari for the privilege of having my usage rights to a software purchase be severely limited. To you people that are saying "It's only 10 bucks" or "It's just the price of a movie ticket", I ask you: what price do you put on your principles?
Alazander, obviously, as an insider, you know more than the rest of us about what Atari may be thinking and what future plans for the franchise may be. But I have to agree with Dirtywick: it's absolutely inconceivable to me that, after an 18 month delay, and outcries and complaints against a DRM scheme that was the reason for the delay, Atari would attempt to interpret low sales of MoW in any fashion whatsoever as a judgment by the community that they're done with NWN2. And to hold the future of the entire NWN2 franchise in the balance against the sales of MoW? That's insanity. If the sales of MoW are low, I think all they need to do is look at the history of mismanagement, ridiculous delays, and general opposition to DRM to see why sales may not be as good as they hoped.
Now, since the DRM is already set, I assume that any future Adventure Packs are going to utilize it, so we're stuck with it from this point forward.
So what do I do? Do I send the message to Atari that I'm not willing to put up with DRM of this nature and not buy this offering, or any future Adventure Packs? Or do I send a message that I want more of this type of content, despite the DRM? I know what signal I want to send to Atari for my money, but I seriously question what signal they'll actually think they're receiving. In the end, I guess my principles come cheap, because I think I'll buy this. I think it's important to show support to you guys at Ossian who have repeatedly been dished out a big helping of steaming hot crap by Atari. We need more of what you guys can bring us, and it's important to do what we can to be sure you're in a position to provide it.
That being said, I'll be watching Atari closely. They've chosen a horrible DRM for one of their latest games (Chronicles of Riddick:Assault on Dark Athena), one that the DRM vendor themselves (TAGES) state will never have a revoke tool, and one that also has activations and limited activations. Atari has promised to remove the DRM in the future. If this does not occur, then I guess we know how trustworthy they are. As well, if there does happen to be an NX3 and it comes with a DRM scheme in the vein of that on MoW or CoR:AoDA, then I will definely vote with my wallet. Only this time it will be a clear "No thanks".
Thanks for the response Luke. I'm sure you're pretty tired of the whole situation. I also did speak with Tiberious briefly, which was unproductive unfortunately.
In any case, again I want to reiterate that I have the utmost respect for Ossian and sincerely hope you guys find some manner of success here and do appreciate your honesty and that nothing that I've said or what follows should be taken personally, because it's not you guys who are the problem from my point of view.
Right, so moving on, it's not that I think you're lying or you don't have access to any insider information or what you've said regarding this information is, to your knowledge, full and true, and I said the same thing to Tiberious. It's Atari who is telling you this, and I don't think they're known for treating you or the community with any honesty or respect. So as much as you say this is the way things are, that's fine, but I don't think I'm out of line for doubting it based on where you're hearing this.
My personal thoughts is no matter how well MoW sells, it won't be enough. The actions of Atari in this fiasco are not those of a company who wishes the franchise success.
It is an interesting plea - but I will not be hearing it.
I view NWN2 as dying, anyway.
MoW is just icing on the cake to the disaster that is NWN2.
This is not to say that Ossian or Obsidian are bad companies, yadda, yadda, yadda. I think they have done the best that they can under extraordinary circumstances.
As long as the D&D IP in the CRPG is under Atari's reins, it will continue to be a disaster. Bioware recognized this, and backed out - I think they were very perceptive in that regards.
I still have NWN - it may be "done" as a game, but the incredible amount of content available for it will keep me immersed for a number of years to come.
NWN2 has failed to take that over from NWN. MoW has failed to match the NWN Premium Content. I think the source of the failures is readily apparent.
As such, I will not be supporting that anymore (and haven't since the incredibly bad MotB, which was my last NWN2 purchase).
I wish Ossian luck and good fortune in the trying times ahead. I would heartily suggest going a different direction as D&D CRPG games.
Ossian is full of talented people. I'm sure you'll have the opportunity to make great games somewhere. If work on nwn2 ends there is still Dragon Age. I'm sure they'll have a premium module program. You won't have to answer to Hasbro then.
I bought MOW but I love these types of games. I'm not sure what the market is for hardware RPGs. It won't sell as well as Plants vs Zombies. :P
Yeah, saw this on the Vault. Man, Atari are only dumb if they expect MoW to sell well now, DRM sucks ass. Don't publishers learn not to put DRM in their products? guess not. Atari are clowns if you ask me.
@ Lance and others: I think that Luke is trying to say that Ossian is not asking for your money but instead asking for your support.
As for an executive looking at the MoW balance sheet, angry forum posts and DRM protests aren't going to be apparent to them.
You really are just hurting Ossian and to a lesser extent, Atari.
Alazander wrote:
"Dirtywick -- Let's assume that as the design lead with Ossian, who is in a business relationship with Atari, I have access to information that they don't publicly release. Remember the rumours about NX3 a while back? Did you get the impression Storm of Zehir sold particularly well? Come on, put two and two together.
Listen, I could spend two pages writing a very sorry tale about Ossian's trials these last 18 months and how it has affected me personally. I could throw some figures at you to back up all my arguments. I won't, though, because that would be very unprofessional and -- as I said in an earlier comment here -- burning bridges and acting up when you're a small company is a great way to ensure no one wants to treat with you in future."
Question to Alazandar: I am not sure how to interpret the above quote - is it your belief, given your level of access, that there will be *no more official expansions* for NWN2 in light of sales of SOZ?
Anxiously awaiting your take,
Tauschitz
Tauschitz – I can't comment on SoZ's sales figures because Atari hasn't released them. However, that doesn't stop you digging around various sources and drawing your own conclusions. As far as new expansions or adventure packs go, there's a very good reason I'm encouraging everyone to support MoW – if it doesn't sell and turn a profit, I don't think there will be any.
I couldn't agree with you more, Alazander. The losers here will clearly be Ossian. Corporate America releases a stupidly designed product, it doesn't sell and they blame the market before looking at themselves. It's ludicrous.
I continually find it amazing that people say Atari should not discount low MoW sales because of an 18 month delay. That so completely misses the point. If MoW had released 18 months ago, we wouldn't be talking about anything except where to go for the next CRPG. It's that simple. None of the expansion sales figures are future variables that might change the balance. They're already known, at least to the ones who call the shots. Based off that, NWN2 is done. Luckily, as it turns out, one product was delayed until now, and so the community has one final chance to convince Atari that there is still enough support to continue. 18 month gap or no, if the audience is gone, there will be nothing more. Does anyone really need it spelled out any more clearly?
Tiberius, CD here again. Let me see if I've got this straight. You're saying NWN2 is dead as it stands unless MoW sales figures are good (I'd suspect they'd have to be really good), in which case they may deign to continue with more APs (or possibly an expansion).
Seriously, an 18 month delay, a DRM scheme that many people hate, pretty much zero advertising, the official announcement was in a place obscure enough that most people couldn't even find it, and they were days behind updating their own North American website to even DL the game? And they're going to look at sales figures of MoW and conclude that it's an indicator of whether there's any interest in the franchise? The mind boggles. After all that's gone on with this Adventure Pack, they should look at any sales as an indicator that the interest in the game is still substantial.
I just bought and downloaded the game a couple of minutes ago since I really want to support you guys at Ossian (not to mention that I've really been looking forward of playing your game)! :D
I mean ... dedicated people aren't easy to find and we really gotta help this young company as much as possible since I think they have the potential of becoming something really big ... with our support. Come on people! :)
Congrats to the release Luke! :)
Cinnabar,
This conversation is difficult because I have been asked to say nothing and am dangerously close to going over the line if I haven't crossed it yet. That said...
What I am saying is that MoW doesn't exist in a vacuum. The total sales figures and their trajectory over time go into a complete picture of what is happening to the NWN2 community and whether it will continue to support further investment. If it won't, why would Atari invest in anything? The reason the community is gone (18 month delays, DRM, whatever) isn't of interest to people concerned with the bottom line, only the fact that it is.
Now, it is obvious that there is only one variable left in the calculation as to whether to continue. Sales figures for NWN2, MotB, and SoZ are in and are not likely to change much in the future. Based off the sales trend of that troika, bye bye NWN2 franchise. MoW is important precisely because it's the last product that has a chance to change the perception.
Really, it is frustrating to say this only to be told that no logical person could look at low sales of MoW without also taking into account the debacle surrounding its release. I'm sure Atari knows this hurt sales, but in the end what drove down sales is irrelevant. The only thing that matters is that the current sales no longer support future investment.
Tiberius: (CD again). I see what you're saying and that's much clearer. For what it's worth, I bought the game. Here's hoping it makes a difference. :)
DRM wont be an issue for long, theres far more inventive and non abrasive means of rights protection.
But when you state you don't like it but "were screwed anyway" quite frankly ... You made your bed and your going to sleep in it.
Precognitive ability to see what Atari will interpret should not be something to display as a point to how DRM hurts a game and its community.
Its a shallow cop out.
I haven't played NWN2 in nearly 2 years (since MOTB anyway), but I'm presently purchasing MOW. I doubt I will ever have time to play it. Grad school and old age (I'm old for a grad student) has negated time for computer games. However, I definitely want to see more NWN2 content and support despite that I hate Atari as a publisher. Ossian deserves my $10. DRM is not the worst thing in the world...
I follow industry news on a regular basis. And, while I certainly don't have access to the kind of information members of Ossian do, I've seen enough news articles to know that Atari is struggling to stay alive right now, and NWN2 is one of their only remaining money-makers. So I'm fully inclined to believe Tiberius and Luke's statements.
I bought MoW day of release and have thoroughly enjoyed it. I think it's a great product and any self-proclaimed NWN2 fan who passes it up due to some self-righteous crusade against DRM is a fool. If you refuse to buy such a great product because you think it will convince Atari to drop the DRM, then you may as well uninstall NWN2 now, because they won't listen to you unless you're prepared to mail them a check with a whole lot of zeros on it.
It's 10 bucks people. As someone said earlier, it's the price of a book and is far more entertaining. Fight your DRM battles over some other, more expensive game that did not receive the care that Ossian gave MoW.
Thanks for the replies guys - I bought MOW 5 days after release.
FOr what it is worth, MOW is very, very enjoyable, and I for one would buy MORE, DRM or no DRM.
Tauschitz
Here's how it goes. Someone at corporate thinks of something that's a bad idea. Pay marketing to think of a way to make the bad idea work, but they actually make the idea worse. The executive loves the worse idea. They develop and publish the product. When the public revolts and refuses to use the product, the company blames a slumping market. Then corporate stops producing the product and everything the product was tied to and move on to the next bad idea to screw something else up that people like. The moral of the story, if it ain't broke don't fix it!
An idea just occurred to me: how would you feel about a one-day DRM "buy-in" protest?
The premise would be this: everyone who has refused to buy MoW because of DRM buys it on that day. Additionally, anyone who has bought it but wants to add their voice could buy it again ($10 really isn't that much to pay for anything, especially for the chance to express your principles).
I expect the sales spike on that day would get Atari's attention while still supporting Ossian. Everyone's happy! (In a perfect world.)
Well said post Luke! You have our support!
Alright, I'll post my two cents on this:
First off, I want to say that I plan on buying MoW in the near future, not for Atari, not for you guys and especially not for the future of NWN2, but for my own personal enjoyment. I've read the reviews for MoW, and while skeptical at first since Darkness over Daggerford really wasn't something that I was interested in, it sounds intriguing in all honesty.
Currently the only thing holding me back from DLing it now is simply that I'm stuck on dialup and I'm not going to put myself through the pain of getting it. In about 1 week, I'll have access to high speed, and I'll be able to acquire it then.
Now as for the more controversial topic. Not everyone will agree with me, but to a degree, I have to side with dirtywick on this issue. Atari will have to be pretty damn stupid to ignore the mistakes that they have made and how they have affected this product and the NWN2 franchise. This isn't the first time Atari has screwed up. Atari has shown how trustworthy they can be back with the Pre-Release Toolset - MoW is just another long chapter in their long history of mismanagement. There's a massive delay, and a DRM applied that will massively effect sales.
For me, after reading all these posts and parts of the DRM fuss on the NWN2 boards, I see the end of NWN2. We all have to face it, there were a few that may have enjoyed Storm of Zehir, but it's not that difficult to look around, see its reviews and realize how pitiful it did. Do we expect it to do as good as the OC or MotB? Nope, however the audience that was targeted was poorly chosen. This type of module was better suited for AP status over an expansion pack. They used the same mechanics used 15 years ago and prayed they were going to be a success. It was a risk, but one that fell flat on its face.
And SoZ was just the beginning of the end. MoW's delays added to it, but truthfully, Ossian's plea I'm afraid will do nothing to save the franchise. No offense to you guys. You guys have tried hard over the years and dealed with more shit than you all should've. Sorry for the language, but I feel as if there's no better way to describe that kind of situation.
I see people mentioning Mass Effect and how terrible of a DRM it was scattered throughout people's arguments. My comment to that is that most people dealt with the DRM, because it was BioWare. It was guaranteed to be an awesome game. It was also on the console as well. Y get to play it as much as you want there - no DRMs to deal with.
Now, we have MoW made by a new group named Ossian Studios - similiar DRM. Well, unless you were actively involved in the community, you probably wouldn't even know who these guys were. In my eyes, MoW was chosen as a scapegoat to attack Atari. We don't know these guys, or they might even think you guys aren't that great after playing DoD. I don't know what's going through the massive majority's head to be honest. I just know that many are choosing to not buy MoW because of the DRM. I believe if BioWare was the maker it would sell vastly better because of their name. It's purely speculation - no real proof besides Mass Effect to prove my belief.
So, ultimately, regardless of whether Ossian asks the consumers to support them, I seriously don't believe enough people will go through with it. Storm of Zehir for me sealed the fate for NWN2. MoW's DRM is just the final chapter. It's sad, and I wish the franchise would live on. But you know who to blame for this. The e current economy, lesser extent Obsidian (for SoZ - arguable but I'm not going to argue that point anymore than I have), and a bigger chunk of blame towards Atari for their continual mismanagement.
Atari isn't going to remove or change the DRM from the Adventure Packs. Costs too much money to do that. NWN2 franchise is good as dead. I would like to believe Atari has taken notice of the DRM issue and their mismanagement of the franchise, but I am really skeptical whether they'll actually do anything about in the future or whether they'll change it in such a way to appease their consumers. My hopes are very low for that as they have shown to me over the past few years especially.
Anyways, my two cents on the topic. I wish you guys luck and hope that I am wrong in seeing NWN2's demise. In any case, I wish you guys luck with your future endeavours and hope you don't receive the same treatment three times in a row.
Anduraga - out.
Haha, thats a first. My post is just as long as dunniteowl's. Sorry about that. Very rarely do I ever do that.
If there is a big fan base, then why not gather up an address of few thousand names and ask them to remove that DRM-protection? Those Atari people will probably not read this blog anyway, so this nice conversation here is for nothing. Take action, make a move. I'd be happily signing in for a such of address. Even one address might not be enough, but think if those kind of addresses were popping up after each release of game containing DRM-crap? That might actually have some effect.
NWN 2 is on life support right now, somebody should pull the plug and put it out of it's misery.
I'm buying it. DoD was simply amazing and I know I'd have bought it if it came out as a Premium Module.
I'm just waiting for DLGamer to sort themselves out though. Checkout button doesn't show any payment option so I'm just staring at the screen blankly with no way to pay and download my game. Here's to hoping their tech support gets back to me promptly.
Cheers, Alazander. DoD was awesome and I'm looking forward to playing MoW soon. Best of luck to you and Ossian.
Alazander. I think you win an award for most commented NWN dev blog, or you are about to blow up the server hosting it. :)
I have been keeping tabs on the post here.
I do not consider buying MoW solely supporting Ossian. I think of it as my single tiny contribution to help keep this community alive.
I am not positive about this, Is the NWN 1 and 2 community one of Atari's longest lasting purchasing powers? They have really done a class Z botch up with this franchise. I do think it is an excellent idea to have a mass send in of letters to them.
Over on the Ossian forums. One person has already taken these steps upon himself. He articulated a well written letter of concern and displeasure with Atari's handling of this entire mess. I am also going to jump on this bandwagon and do the same. Seems Atari has a questionnaire. I'm going to utilize it thoroughly. I would think, if you truly want your concerns heard. You may want to write Atari a letter too. We get enough of them. Maybe they will clean out their ears and finally listen. (Maybe) I would suggest not going off the deep end and just shout at them. That will get you no where.
Here is the post by the buyer that let Atari know how they felt.
http://www.ossianstudios.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=45
I personally think it is a good idea.
So many causes are futilely fought. Accepting defeat so easily. "Shrugs" What is the community worth to you? Is it so easy to just lay down and accept it all? This is not about Ossian in the least for me. They have my respect and they are quite aware of this. This about the community has a whole. The ability to produce what you enjoy doing in the toolset. Seeing players get excited about new releases. Expressing your artistic side with out breaking the bank doing so. Playing all the free games "I personally love that part"
In closing. Is it worth you spending a few minutes articulating a well written letter. Or get your team together and write one, sign all of your names to it? You may think if it is a wasted effort. However, what if enough of us did it? What "if" it was enough to be heard? What if it is enough to get some changes? What do you have to lose really? With out doing so, you have already accepted the fate. The fate of the community may not change even if we all do write in and express our feelings. But why not spend the few minutes on a chance that cost us nothing but a short amount of time? Regardless whether or not this could work. You can say, “you tried!”
Okay. I have rambled far to long. Cheers!
Michele
MoW has definitely had its ups and downs over the last year+. I am sad to see the way things have occurred for Ossian.
I know that I, and many others at Obsidian, will be purchasing our copies of MoW to support you guys.
Dev Solidarity!
Bought it and Played as evil and good with this Wicked adventure. As for community support there is a starting topic today for NWCon5 at NWConnections. This year would be good to help pull in more community support and take part in anyway even just hanging out online to game with your fans and make new ones and help build more support for future adventure packs and Ossian.
Dear Alazander,
I would certainly be ready to buy MoW on CD/DVD even for 20-30 EUR. The copy-protection doesn't matter, I handle my CDs with care and normally don't need backups. However spending 10 EUR for a DRM download, with limited installations, keeps me hesitating.
The real question is why this expansion is only released as DRM download. Ossian should try to get it released with less restrictions on CD/DVD, just as Bioware managed with Kingmaker. No need for a high end collector's edition box. That way, you (and your publisher) can compare both ways of distribution.
IMHO the real reason behind PC games DRM isn't to restrict piracy. This protection, like any other copy protection, may and will be removed by malevolent persons. The real reason is the publishers attempt to kill the second hand market. Be it legitimate or not (I haven't yet decided this philosophic/economic question for myself), they should at least openly admit, why they are trying to push those restrictions on their loyal customers.
BTW, I hope for Ossian, a future NWN2 Diamond (or whatever edition) will include your expansion.
Now that being said, I might buy the download version in a not so far future as soon as I get to reinstall NWN2 (and some time to serious cRPG gaming!). However in the meantime, I'm still crossing fingers to see a CD/DVD release of MoW.
Xi
Thanks for the candor, Luke. I don't care for NWN2 at all, but I haven't seriously tried to play it since November 2006 or so. I know that patches have improved the game substantially since then, and one of these days, I'll back to it. That being said, I bought MoW on launch day simply to support Ossian Studios. Darkness Over Daggerford was a quality product they Ossian deserved to make money on, and hopefully MoW will rectify that. Good luck to you and all at Ossian in the future.
As stated before, I hope Ossian is able to hook up with the Dragon Age folks and help provide great quality contant for them. You all have a lot of talent, and I really hope you get to work in the future without being stifled by Atari. All that said, I'll keep buying NWN2 material as long as Ossian provides it!
Liso, that's incorrect. There was a separate Kingmaker disc released that included Shadowguard, Witch's Wake, and Kingmaker. You did not have to buy the Diamond Edition to get those three Premium Modules on disc.
Cheers,
Cinnabar.
Thank you for the correction Cinnabar
I looked on the site, and must of missed that. I know I got all of them on digital download.
*admits to being wrong with a slight blush* hehe
Tiberius Said: "Sales figures for NWN2, MotB, and SoZ are in and are not likely to change much in the future. Based off the sales trend of that troika, bye bye NWN2 franchise."How sure are you of your conclusion in the second sentence?
I think that's getting into territory Tiberius has been told to keep mum about. But given his position as an industry 'insider', I'd guess he's probably 100% positive on that.
Cinnabar.
Liso, I don't know if it's even available on Atari's site. But I've seen it in shops. You can see a picture of the box at the following url:
http://www.amazon.ca/Neverwinter-Nights-Kingmaker-Expansion-Pack/dp/B000B8P8RG/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=videogames&qid=1242081609&sr=8-3
(Ignore the fact that they incorrectly identify the pack as an expansion). As I noted above though, I've personally seen it in shops as well.
Cinnabar.
The problem of boycotting because of DRM is such a gesture, small as it is, becomes devalued further if you are willing to forgo it for the purpose of buying stuff you like. If you are going to buy the stuff anyway and only boycott the ones you were unlikely to buy, then you might as well not bother.
People who haven't been stung by DRM won't see the fuss really until they do. As things are going, it's just a matter of time because it just seems to be getting worse. And when it finally does, there's a good chance it'll drive you up the wall too.
I refuse to give any money towards buying a product designed to screw me. It's simple as that - even if it means the product goes bust. Because Atari is going to just screw you again the next time, and again, and probably harder next time since they got away with this. The bottom line is the only thing that hurts them and even if it's hit/miss, you can only hope that by denying them a sale, they *might* eventually get the point. But giving them money definitely won't change their ways. We (customers) over years managed to (mostly) get rid of Starforce by boycotting entire publishers completely. We can only stick to our guns on this too.
It's a lousy way to protest and it's the developers who take the brunt of the damage. But this method along with bad PR seems to be the only thing that can change future releases. OK, my influence is tiny - just my copy and 2 friends. 3 sales is a drop in the ocean - I can only keep the faith it adds up in the long run.
I don't reject MoW completely. I will buy it if it gets re-released minus the "f*** you" special payload from Atari. But in the meantime I am only sorry the Publisher (not us, the customer), had opted to screw the talented developing team over in this on top of everything else. However you phrase it in the blog, the customers who choose to reject this DRM are not the ones punishing Ossian. Atari is, repeatedly. And all we can do is to let them know and back up our emails/letters by denying them the sale because otherwise they just give our complaints the finger.
Sounds like 2 completely different elections.
And i think it's really getting twisted in ways that have little bearing on the situation. Do you want to vote for Neverwinter, which means you will be measured as a real vote that can be measured. Should we all stop being gamers to stop DRM, that will end DRM and the companies involved.
Or do you just want to vote for no more DRM, which also means no one will have any idea how many voted against, since it's just not showing up. Really if there are no sales does that mean 5 billion people voted for it - sounds like the same logic used to support DRM, since they think those pirated versions all equal lost sales.
DRM is not going away. How bad the DRM is, we need a compromise on and not get an extreme position on. And i think a letter to your congressman is going to be more of a way to make your feelings known. Or a letter to atari. If you actually make it so it has to be signed for by a bigwig that would make it apparent.
I think in order for you to vote for or against something, you need to show up at least. If you protest your workplace you still have to picket and show up, and this voting against DRM is not really a protest but more akin to just quitting. This is not protesting, it's leaving, protesting involves remaining active and those who don't show up really don't deserve a voice.
Now i suggest an alternative if you want your voices heard, a way in which you can buy the game, and also support a good cause. If we donated to a charity, of the Ossians or Atari's choice, to show our feelings on DRM, and in a way soas to be able to measure those results, then they'd be able to see where that money is going. But without a measureable result it's futile. Combine this with a pledge to buy a non DRM version i think you have a good solution, even though i cannot see a way to do that which keeps it from ending up on file sharing sites.
But not buying MoW because of the DRM is just quitting.
I feel it is a horrible tragedy that Ossian Studios must endure the colossal failure of Atari's management, yet again. My advice to you is to get as far away from them as you possibly can and don't look back.
Atari has proven many times over that they do not deserve the Dungeons and Dragons liscense and are proving it once again, for now the entire NWN2 franchise will die because of their gross negligence and undeniable incompetence (First it was the abysmal SOZ, but now it's the unacceptable DRM/Limited Installs). I say let the beast die, so that in the future a worthy company holding at least fair common sense, will own the rights to produce our beloved D&D games.
If I were Ossian, I would approach Bioware/EA because they seem to have come to their senses regarding the issue.
I know I will never buy any product with this sort of DRM Scheme. I will not give an inch, just so they can later take a mile.
So... Alazander wants us to support a scheme that he himself agrees is crappy, in order to support something that depends on the corrupt structure that gave rise to that scheme?
No thanks.
Sorry, Alazander, but if Ossian - and NWN2, and Atari itself for that matter - go down the khazi, I won't mourn for them. Good developers will find new companies, ones that aren't governed by the idiotic whims of half-witted marketers.
When that day comes - and I realise it might be ten years or more down the road - you'll be happier because you'll have a better employer, and we'll be happier because we'll have a better product. But if we persist in sticking with the old structure for fear of losing it - then we'll be prolonging the life of the present, rotten structure. Before it can be reborn, it has to die, and as far as I'm concerned, that can't happen too soon.
DRM be damned...a fun and well done game deserves to be bought and played!
And the industry and developers supported :)
Heading over to buy my copy right now, best of luck and thanks for all the hard work!
Stu
I'm with Liso (and probably others in this 71 comment-long thread which I can't take the time to go through!).
I don't get how anyone can complain about anything related to a $ 10 15-hour game. I mean, a movie costs as much, while providing a fraction of the entertainment, and I don't complain when the cinema won't let me see it more than once.
If this kind of DRM means I pay $10 bucks instead of $20 or more without it (to make up for losts sales due to increased piracy) then I'm all for it.
And honestly, I think those that have threatened to boycott the game solely because of this DRM are in the minority. I don't think sales will be hurt by them. At this stage.
Sales have been hurt by the delay however. That's a certainty. The delay is the greatest tragedy in this story, not the DRM itself.
When approached from the "it's just $10" perspective, it does seem a bit silly to complain about it.
But, on the other hand, I buy games for the long haul. Some of my most played games are 10 years old by now, or even older than that. I must've installed Baldur's Gate 20 times on various computers since I bought it. Or a much better example, Ultima VII, likely the best computer RPG ever created. It's an amazing game, and I can still play it and enjoy it today, despite the graphics and audio being extremely dated. I paid roughly $12 for my copy of Ultima VII, so not much more than MoW costs. If that game would have had limited activations, I literally would be unable to play it right now, if I wanted to. Origin has long since gone under, and given Atari's shaky economy the last couple years, I'm not willing to bet that it will stay afloat forever.
No, when I buy a game - no matter the price tag - I don't buy it to play through once and throw away. I buy it so I can play it whenever and whereever I choose to, no matter if it's now or twenty years down the line. That is why I will not buy MoW, I'm sorry to say, even though it's just a $10 price tag.
That's just it E.C. Patterson. It wouldn't cost $20 without the DRM, it would carry the same (or a lower) pricetag as ir does right now. Why? Because:
1) Activation-based DRM does not prevent piracy in any way. Spore was available on torrent sites a week prior to release and the situation was no different for any other SecuROM-secured product.
2) Activation-based DRM carries a significant pricetag to implement. Even if piracy levels are equal without DRM (which is unlikely - less piracy seems most likely) then it's still more beneficial for the publisher NOT to implement DRM.
3) Activation-based DRM does nothing to improve sales. In fact, looking at EA's most recent releases (and the music industry), it has the exact opposite effect.
As for claiming that the DRM won't hurt sales of MoW much, I severely doubt it. Have you ever wondered why EA and Activision seem to have dropped SecuROM after their (failed) experiments with it?
It's because the DRM hurt their sales in such force that even these mammoth publishers took note. Not because the (relatively small amount of) complainers boycotted their products with SecuROM. But because most of those complainers are the so-called hardcore gamers, who tend to be the go-to guys (and girls) for the bulk of more casual gamers whom are simply looking for something new to play. When your go-to guy (or gal) says a game is good, but shouldn't be bought for technical reasons, what do you do? You don't buy it, but you might download it.
By now SecuROM has such a bad rep even amongst gamers who know nothing of these 'technical' things, that the mere mention of it automates to a non-purchase. It sucks for game developers who are forced into SecuROM by their publishers, but that's just the way it is right now.
That being said, I will purchase MoW. I've purchased a wealth of SecuROM-secured games already, so what's one more? The developers deserve the money - and you can always work around the SecuROM if you really want to. Besides, actually purchasing the games secured with this draconic DRM lends you the right to complain... I don't think you have that right as a non-customer... it doesn't count the same to a publisher, you might well be a regular pirate after all ...
(and complain I do :))
I've been a D&D fan for a long time and have been waiting impatiently for MoW's release.
I bought MoW and really enjoyed it. I was tempted not to do so but didn't for the reasons you put up in your blog. In the end I decided the only people such a stance would hurt was a game developer I'd like to encourage and support and myself, missing out on a rare D&D treat.
The game is not perfect, but then again what is.
Ossian's reputation has been enhanced by the game as a developer of enjoyable games. I sincerely hope there are more on the way.
The Atari people responsible for this fiasco need to take a good hard look at themselves. What a joke!
Well done on the game and good luck in you future efforts.
Regards,
John
I've bought this and think the DRM argument is ridiculous. $10, if the limited activations bite and there is some problem with atari resetting them then it's still not expensive.
Taking a stand with this game of all games is disgraceful, buy it and send atari nasty emails, buy it and boycott major atari releases, buy it and pirate it later if there's a problem but for gods sake buy it if it's the kind of game you like and want more of.
Heh.
What pleas to the masses.
Since the only thing that I have to go on is currently the poll on The Vault, I cannot say truly what sales of MoW looks like.
The Poll on The Vault, however, shows that more are not purchasing it than are.
And that is your Community right there.
As for others, who do not participate in the Community, or visit the Forums, I seriously doubt that they are even aware that MoW exists.
Personally, taking a stand against draconic DRM and Atari is much more important than last minute, desperate measures to save a dying game.
If the Permium Mod system for NWN2 had gotten off the ground 18 MONTHS ago, like it was supposed to, then I could see funding for more patches of NWN2, and even perhaps a NWX3 - but with that long thirsty financial stretch...
And only a DRM ridden mini-product finally spit out, that is the writing on the wall, folks.
No, it is time to take a principled stand against DRM and Atari here. Ossian will survive this, if they have any business savvy at all. After all, they have had 18 freakin' MONTHS to read the writing on the wall!
Great entry and i do feel sorry for Ossian studios, but i will not be renting this game.
I use the word renting because with limited activations this is effectively what it means. Maybe you can get more activations, but it still means at the end of the day when Atari want to close shop on this product they can do.
Same goes with games with online verification. I dont buy. You are then dependent on the goodwill of the producers to authorise a no-cd/no-verfication patch before they close down the servers (presuming they dont disappear in a flash of bankruptcy).
Recently i have been playing Motocross Madness and Dungeon Siege. Both games i purchased legally years ago. Disks are long gone but i had backup ISOs (probably broke some law here), and therefore i am enjoying things i legally bought.
Would i be able to (legally) play MoW in 5-10 years? I very much doubt it.
Sorry Ossian. Not sorry to Atari.
I still think it's sad how people are willing to put such a talented team out of work because they want to save themselves 10$ in a year or two. Obviously those people have never experienced what it's like to be cut from a job you love due to "budget problems". I'm dangerously close to that situation myself and fully sympathise with Ossian. I really hope for the best in their case.
First thing, I loved your AL series on NWN.
I'm one of the many, many gamers that are taking a principled stand against DRM. I've been playing D&D for 19 years now & have been modding PC games since the 90s. I have literally purchased thousands of dollars worth of games & expansions over my years. I'm sure MoW is a great game, but I do not want that DRM crud on any of my computers. I do not want game publishers deciding what software I can & can't use on my PC (SecuROM vs Process Explorer). If that means no more expansions for NWN2, sorry about your luck. We have the Toolset. Hell, we still have NWN which is still being expanded on by the modding community & is IMHO a better game than NWN2 anyhow. This means that I've basically quit buying games published by Atari & EA. Thankfully there are publishers that aren't treating their customers like thieves & their clients like bastard children such as Valve, Stardock & to a lesser extent GOG.
To be perfectly clear, they are getting my money now. Not Atari.
Hello.
I'm a Mac user so you know how po I am at the moment. While I know that this other company is at fault as to why we're lagging behind I'd like to point at another problem here.
Why does this company Atari have no insights to all the woes of us end users?
We can choose to buy or not buy this product but that would only feed into the sales of the product and not the focal issue of quality and care.
We have to contact Atari directly and I mean either email, letters, phone calling, and if we're close buy their offices, a trip to the office.
They are not going to look at the boards they have because many of us have said our feelings there and yet no answers from them directly. They are a living the mega company dream that they feel they can do what ever. But if we go directly to them that should show them that we mean what we say that this Secrom and DRM has got to go.
Another route is to take issue with WOTC and let them know that Atari is not commeted in doing right for the future of AD&D gaming.
It's hard to tell what is truly right to do in all of this?
But with the change in rules now 3.5 to 4E. Who knows what is right?
All I can say is that even if I wanted to I can't download MoW because of the PC only installer this product has. If you really want us to save your hard work. You guys need to understand that not all use PC's and that not all have BB lines. (Broadband)
So maybe these issues were brought up or maybe not. But without being demanding somebody could have suggested alturnitives for those who surly could not download? Poland worked something out, right?
Good luck to you all and I hope to find a way to help you. If you all can find a way to let us help you.
I'm a bit late, but I also bought a copy yesterday and will start to play it soon. I would very much prefer DRM free games and I would still buy them. I have drawn a line however that I wont buy games that have draconic DRM (EA/late-Bioware style). I really hope MoW does well, not only because of concerns for the future of the franchise, but because you guys and girls at Ossian deserve it. You made one of the best adventure packs for NWN and had to release it for free, because the "evil" publisher decided to pull the plug. Wish you all the best and as long as you keep on making games that I like playing (RPGs mostly), I'll keep buying them.
nobody 'bought' this game...everyone is 'renting' it. it's not for 'sale'.
Hey, I'm a bit late to this post, but I just saw it referenced on the NWN2 general forums, which I do not visit much.
I'm afraid that I, like a few of my long time community members, will not be purchasing MoW. I was even still following it after its long delay and was still willing to buy it after my interest in NWN2 had long waned since I was pretty sure it would be a good title. And I think that reviews on the MoW forum have shown that it is a good title. Which makes it harder, but, unfortunately in this instance, I will have to cut off my nose to spite my face. I'll take solace in the fact that I'm not the only loser in this situation. Even if Atari loses just my purchase, then it's certainly deserved.
Others have articulated my reasons very well, but I have that I'll quickly list. I do not disdain all DRM's, but I refuse to purchase any game that has an unreasonable one. My gaming interests are very narrow, and I do not want these heavy handed DRM schemes that could make honest customers rely on the good will of a publisher to play their title in the future. I'm sorry, but I'm willing to forgo a great game if this is the road the publisher wants to go down. I didn't buy ME, but I had limited interest. I have more interest in MoW, but I won't be buying that. I have great interest in Dragon Age, but if EA had implemented a similar DRM into that product as they implemented for ME, I wouldn't be willing to buy that title either. I'm perfectly fine with reasonable digital rights management. However, when companies cross a line, I have little recourse but to not do business with them.
And as others have said, I buy my games for life. Or rather, in today video game eula jargon, I like to be able to use my games for years down the road. I still own every PC title I've ever purchased. I just finished playing IWD over the christmas holidays. How many PC's do you think I've gone through since I bought that one? Sorry, but regardless of the price tag, if I purchase something, I like to use it, a lot. Call me old fashioned. If I own a movie, I may watch it 10 years later. If I own a CD, I may listen to it 20 years later. And if I own a game, I may want to play it 30 years later. Who knows, right?
Anyway, I wish you all at Ossian good luck in the future and I certainly hope you can move away from Atari. After the mess with DoD and now MoW, I feel for you. Before anyone labels me as unsympathetic, I've had businesses close. It's really hard to do, and I don't wish it on anyone. So I can sympathize with you on this. I really hope that if things are finished for NWN2, you can fine somewhere to apply your talents. But I can't purchase MoW with the current DRM. Sorry; I really am.
I would normally not buy this game due to the DRM, but as I played Darkness at Daggerford and enjoyed it I will make an exception.
However, it would be interesting if you could release two versions of your next module, one with full features and DRM and one with limited features (no voice acting, side quests missing or whatever) but without DRM for the same price. I bet that at least 98% of the pirated games will be of the full version (cracked), most consumers will buy the full version as well without thinking but the DRM-free version will reach paying customers who want long-term value for their money without breaking the law.
Good luck and keep up the good work - hopefully without futile attempts at DRM protection that gets beaten in a few days anyway!
OK, I bought it. Even if it was always obvious I wouldn't. Not only the DRM, but I was already burned by premium module not authenticating properly on NWN1.
Feel a bit filthy now, giving even more cash to the money grubbing leeches at Atari. Now if this sells well enough, them morons will assume the DRM works. If this doesn't sell, it's because RPG's don't sell.
But the points made in this blog changed my mind.
Here's hoping Ossian gets something out of this...
I think that people might be more inclined to buy MoW if Ossian was more forthcoming with how to make overrides work with it without breaking the script triggers in the encrypted modules and hak files.
That said, I bought MoW off D2D two days after it came out and have been enjoying it thus far (although I think the rest system from SoZ may be less prone to abuse).
I was UrKnightErrant back in the day. My bio forums account was banned more than a year ago for "Atari Bashing". Click on my username to visit my URL if you want to read the entire exchange.
I'll keep this short and indulge a petty but undeniable urge that has been festering ever since.
I'm going to say "I told you so" and watch Atari go under.
I'm sorry to see Ossian suffer for Atari's idiocy, but my treatment by Atari as a customer, and on a more personal level by the NWN2 forum mods, has just been too shabby.
Besides. There's not enough of us left to bail this ship out. It's going down and that's that.
I'll make you a counter offer. I offer this up to the entire community as a logical extension of the anti-DRM rebellion. Put a paypal button on your site. When the hackers crack it... and they WILL crack it... I'll download it via torrent and play it. When I'm done I'll donate what I think the game was worth. If DOD is any indication I'll be giving you a LOT more than ten bucks.
That's my offer. Take it or leave it.
I too dislike the drm and was considering not buying mow but after reading the forums I have decided to buy mow but only beccause as far as I know ossian make money out of it. But I will no longer buy atari games(with or without DRM) unless ossian had apart in the making and therefore make a profit from it's purchase.
I will do this until Atari stops using DRM altogether. It seem to have the same affect as drugs: Addictive, mess with your judgement, and make you aggresive(if you get the meaning)
Well I heard a rumor a few weeks ago that MoW had been cracked. Today I confirmed it. There was a working hack available for MoW less than a month after it was released.
As far as I'm concerned Hasbro can't get the D&D license away from Atari fast enough. What a bunch of schmucks.
As for you ossian guys, run. Run as fast as you can. Maybe bio will let you hitch your wagon to dragon age because as long as Atari is in control of NWN it has no future.
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